Goblin Front Porch

[Chrysophylax Dives]

This question first and foremost for @Drifa, who has said elsewhere: "I have often wondered about that door on the Front Porch. Was it magical or mechanical?"

The Front Porch was the answer to one of my riddles in the Shire thread. My conception of it is that it is a version of the hidden door into the Lonely Mountain, only opened from inside rather than outside. But the magical or mechanical question made me wonder if this is quite so. Is the hidden door into the Lonely Mountain magical rather than mechanical? Is the goblin door 'hidden' whether it is magical or mechanical?

Insights from anyone are welcome!

[Fuin Elda]

We don't (aside from my silly thread about magical/immortal orcs) have any proof of goblins having magic by which to create this door magically. We do know that Gandalf is suspicious of the cave but doesn't push because previously they'd known that the Goblin door was on another pass and that this one had opened up recently.

I think part of it that comes across as magical is the fact that Bilbo is having a dream or a nightmare about the crack opening up which makes it feel more magical when it can be entirely mechanical. The door closing with a snap doesn't mean that it's magical that could be something as simple as a counter weight dropping and the door shutting which would (and this may be based on the films line from Treebeard about metal and gears and Saruman and his Urukhai) certainly meet the mechanical aspect that is associated with the bad guys.

The part of that scene that is magical is when the goblins get killed is done by Gandalf and is actually away from the door.

[Drífa]

We don't (aside from my silly thread about magical/immortal orcs) have any proof of goblins having magic by which to create this door magically. We do know that Gandalf is suspicious of the cave but doesn't push because previously, they'd known that the Goblin door was on another pass and that this one had opened up recently.

Well, he did push it because he inspected it thoroughly. The cave that is. It is strange that when Gandalf was satisfied with his inspection, he never noticed any outline or sign of a door that leads one to believe he missed it or did not detect it.

But the wizard was taking no risks. He lit up his wand - as he did that day in Bilbo's dining-room that seemed so long ago, if you remember-, and by its light they explored the cave from end to end. Over Hill and Under Hill, TH

[Fuin Elda]

Hmmm that is true, but if the doors are not so much doors but rocks that would move or shift they wouldn't be cut as doors like the Doors of Durin would be if the entire point was to keep them hidden they likely wouldn't look like anything from the exterior so I'm not entirely sure that it was pushed that hard. Lighting up something and looking at it when they simply noted there were lots of nooks and places for the ponies is not the same thing as inspecting every inch and rock to see if it is a solid portion of the mountain wall.

[The Good Hunter]

Thinking on this a bit, the Goblin Front Porch and the Secret Door are parallels, each mirroring how a mountain/subterranean species protects itself from potential intruders. The Front Porch is something akin something a trap door spider might come up with while the Secret Door is meant to be more of an escape hatch.

That aside, I think Fuin is right that the Front Porch is a mechanical creation rather than a magical one. If we look at the parallel between the doors in the Hobbit, the Secret Door clearly has some sort of magical nuance about it so it makes sense that the Front Porch, the door of the enemy, is mechanical. Tolkien often associates orcs (or goblins in this case) with industrialization so this seems to fit the pattern; actually it seems to set the pattern in motion.

[Romeran]

I agree with @Hop-Frog and @Fuin Elda that it seems highly unlikely that if the door was magical that it would be of goblin-make. That being said, it's possible that the door/entrance was not of goblin-make in the first place and that the goblins are simply using it, although I can find no textual evidence to support this claim.

As to why Gandalf didn't notice it, I think the point is that it's already a crack and that the crack opens:

"At that he woke with a horrible start, and found that a part of his drewam was true. A crack had opened at the back of the cave, and was already a wide passage. [...] The crack closed with a snap, and Bilbo and the dwarves were on the wrong side of it" (Over Hill and Under Hill)

I always took this to mean that there was some sort of boulder or boulder & pulley system that makes what appears like simply a crack in the wall in the back of a cave actually open like a pair of sliding doors.

[Eldy Dunami]

We don't (aside from my silly thread about magical/immortal orcs) have any proof of goblins having magic by which to create this door magically.

I might be missing something, but this seems a rather strange statement to me, since Gandalf specifically referred to orcs having magic related to doors when the Fellowship was stuck outside the West-gate of Moria (FOTR, II 4):

‘From the outside nothing will move them save the spell of command. [...] I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose.’

We also know orcs had their own version of miruvor, "orc-liquor," which was less potent but nonetheless had some of the same properties, for which we have no non-supernatural explanation (TTT, III 3).

One quote that sometimes gets brought up in discussions about magic in Middle-earth comes from Letter 155, where Tolkien stated that " 'magic' in this story ... is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such," with the caveat that Aragorn could perform what might be described as magical feats by virtue of his descent from Lúthien. However, Tolkien promptly cast doubt on this in a footnote, when he remembered he'd written that "the Númenóreans used 'spells' in making swords." Of course, that is far from the only exception. Besides Gandalf name-checking Mannish spells at the Moria-gate, Sauron spent thousands of years teaching select human servants to use magic: the Nazgûl became "sorcerers" in the mid-Second Age (TS, OTROP), and the Mouth of Sauron learned "great sorcery" in the late Third (ROTK, V 10). Even Letter 155, when discussing evil "magicians", refers to "the Enemy, or those who have become like him." I find it unlikely said category contained many, if any, Elves.

While I can't recall offhand any mentions of orcish magic beside the two given above, I think it's fairly clear that Tolkien envisioned Middle-earth as a place where numerous different groups were capable of performing magical feats, though doubtless with varying degrees of potency. (Let us not forget, Dwarves too produced artifacts that most readers would describe as magical, whether or not they fit the Elves' obscure semantic categories.) We know very little about orcs in general, so it's unsurprising we have perhaps the fewest examples of their magic. I would have to reread the relevant portion of The Hobbit to have an opinion specifically on the "Front Porch," but I don't think there's any reason to dismiss the possibility that it was magical out of hand.

[Romeran]

I would have to reread the relevant portion of The Hobbit to have an opinion specifically on the "Front Porch," but I don't think there's any reason to dismiss the possibility that it was magical out of hand.

Having recently just gone back and read the section on the door I don't think there's any evidence that the door/crack is magical. I also wonder if the notion of spells in the tongue of orcs is referring to the speech (i.e. the Black Speech which wasn't invented by orcs) rather than that these were spells used by orcs. So I'm not sure this is really evidence of orcish magic but rather magic in the Black Speech, here referred to as the tongue of Orcs.

Gandalf's response is certainly magical, but all we actually see is that a crack appears (which could easily be mechanically operated) and then closes with a snap (by contrast when Gandalf is awakened there's "a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder" (Over Hill and Under Hill)). Nothing in this passage, as far as I can tell, indicates this opening/closing was magic. It's also later mentioned that the orcs/goblins have made many clever things "They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. [...] it is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them" (ibid, my emphasis) which again I think would indicate a likely mechanical nature of the door

[Eldy Dunami]

I also wonder if the notion of spells in the tongue of orcs is referring to the speech (i.e. the Black Speech which wasn't invented by orcs) rather than that these were spells used by orcs. So I'm not sure this is really evidence of orcish magic but rather magic in the Black Speech, here referred to as the tongue of Orcs.

That would be an odd way of referring to the Black Speech, which according to Appendix F was a failed attempt by Sauron at creating a "language of all those that served him." While a good deal of its vocabulary was adopted into various Orcish dialects, the Black Speech itself was rarely spoken in the Third Age: "after the first overthrow of Sauron this language in its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl." Furthermore, Appendix F uses the term Orkish [sic] to refer to the orcs' own languages, and Appendix E refers to "the Black Speech and Orkish" as, implicitly, separate languages with similarities.

It's also later mentioned that the orcs/goblins have made many clever things "They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. [...] it is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them" (ibid, my emphasis) which again I think would indicate a likely mechanical nature of the door

I think this is a good point.

[Romeran]

That would be an odd way of referring to the Black Speech, which according to Appendix F was a failed attempt by Sauron at creating a "language of all those that served him." While a good deal of its vocabulary was adopted into various Orcish dialects, the Black Speech itself was rarely spoken in the Third Age: "after the first overthrow of Sauron this language in its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl." Furthermore, Appendix F uses the term Orkish [sic] to refer to the orcs' own languages, and Appendix E refers to "the Black Speech and Orkish" as, implicitly, separate languages with similarities.

I'm not sure I read this the same way. Doesn't the appendix explicitly state that the orcs had no language of their own:

"It is said that they [the orcs] had no language of their own, but took what they could of other tongues and perverted it to their own liking; yet they made only brutal jargons, scarcely sufficient even for their own needs, unless it were for curses and abuse." (Appendix F: Orcs and the Black Speech, my emphasis)

This gets referred to as "dialects" (not language) and that these dialects weren't even mutually intelligible:

"And these creatures, being filled with malice, hating even their own kind, quickly developed as many barbarous dialects as there were groups or settlements of their race, so that their Orkish speech was of little use to them in intercourse between different tribes" (ibid, my emphasis) seems hardly a language of spells, especially if it's not even really one language (there's no indication that these dialects even contain the same root languages as they're supposed to be basically perverted tongues of whoever else was around and did have language) the only consistent thing here seems to be that orcs speak it (like saying "dialects of Human" to refer to all of the languages in the world).

And while you're right that it says that Sauron failed: "It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he had desired ot make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose" (ibid)

the passage continues with: "From the Black Speech, however, were derived many of the words that in the Third Age wide-spread among the orcs" (ibid, my emphasis) this wide-spread aspect is important and in stark contrast with the not mutually intelligible dialects of "orcish" which existed before. The passage then points out that it's only the Ancient form that was lost (c.f. Westron vs. Adunaic, Westron being derivative from Adunaic) but more importantly the part about Black Speech falling into disuse refers to the period between Sauron's power: "When Sauron arose again, it became once more the language of Barad-dur and of the captains of Mordor. The inscription on the Ring was in the ancient Black Speech while the curse of the Mordor-orc on p.445 was in the more debased form used by the soldiers of the Dark Tower" (ibid, my emphasis) indicating that the orcs (of the Dark Tower at least) are indeed using a debased form of the Black Speech, likely because the other dialects of "orcish" aren't actually mutually intelligible.

I think more importantly as explained by this text there is no universal "orcish" tongue (in fact it sounds like half of the dialects aren't even mutually intelligible) from which these "spells" derive, which leads me to believe it's more likely he's referring to the Black Speech and things like the inscription on the One Ring. This is my conjecture, of course.

[Eldy Dunami]

I'm not sure I read this the same way. Doesn't the appendix explicitly state that the orcs had no language of their own:

When describing the very early Orcs of the First Age, yes.

...seems hardly a language of spells, especially if it's not even really one language (there's no indication that these dialects even contain the same root languages as they're supposed to be basically perverted tongues of whoever else was around and did have language) the only consistent thing here seems to be that orcs speak it (like saying "dialects of Human" to refer to all of the languages in the world).

Why is it relevant whether or not there is a single, mutually intelligible Orcish language? I never claimed there was, and according to Gandalf's statement outside Moria, there are spells in many different languages. In some fantasy settings, using magic requires you to speak a special, usually archaic tongue, but I dispute that this is the case for Middle-earth. That certain languages such as Quenya or archaic Black Speech are spoken by magically adept peoples does not necessarily mean that speaking those languages is why they are magically adept, or that no other languages could be used.

If you have textual evidence you can point to that the use of magic is limited to certain "languages of spells" and/or that the existence of non-mutually intelligible dialects somehow precludes a language from being used for magic, I would be delighted to peruse it even if I end up being proven wrong.

[Fuin Elda]

From a witchy perspective I cast spells regularly. Would I ascribe my spells to be specifically magical in the truest form of what magic is? No.


So I'm not sure Gandalf knowing spells in orc to gue would me much different. The most common equivalent to my spells to the most common religions would be 'prayers' but I do those spells while i am brewing potions which I can tell you will give a person energy generally without a hard drop (I'm no elf so there are some drops from them but it's less than say a caffeine pill)... I'd suggest orc liquor may be jagermeister lol. Same blackish brown liquid too .

I also really feel like having a spell command might be different than a true spell? Indeed the doors of Durin are magical but they were not crafted by orcs - but dwarves and elves. Even the dwarven back door on the Lonely mountain to me comes across as a really well concealed door that unless you know exactly where the keyhole is you're not gonna see it/find it. Which comes across to me more mechanical than magical

I imagine a spell of command would be just as likely a password one could give and some elaborate echo tunnel system would let some goblin know to pull the lever and let whoever in.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Thinking on this a bit, the Goblin Front Porch and the Secret Door are parallels, each mirroring how a mountain/subterranean species protects itself from potential intruders. The Front Porch is something akin something a trap door spider might come up with while the Secret Door is meant to be more of an escape hatch.

Yes, that is how I view it.

On the general discussion on this thread - wow! It reminds me why I joined this site in the first place. @Eldy Dunami's point about Gandalf's reference to Orc spells of opening is very nice (never mind that one can then argue it inside and out - though i don't see how the arguments affect the initial point that Orcs may use magic doors).

But I do wonder if the general discussion has conflated two distinct kinds of door-magic. As with the Orc spell of opening, the general discussion here appears to assume that what is magical about a magic door is how it opens. For what it is worth, I think this a natural reading in relation to LOTR, with all that palaver opening the Doors of Durin and Galadriel then suggesting to Frodo the metaphor that Sauron's plan with the Rings is about opening the door. But it seems to me that The Hobbit is concerned with the magic of invisibility and unexpected appearance - with Moonletters invisible until the right moon and a hobbit invisible when he puts on a magic ring.

I am not sure, but it seems to me that the magic of the hidden door is about it being, well, hidden. After all, it opens in a way no more mysterious than the front door of Bag-end (one uses a key, rather than ringing the doorbell). So I reasoned that Tolkien, in his cunning, crafty way, as it were hid in his story a second hidden door, namely the Front Porch.

Not at all sure I am right (which is why I posted)...

[Romeran]

Why is it relevant whether or not there is a single, mutually intelligible Orcish language? I never claimed there was, and according to Gandalf's statement outside Moria, there are spells in many different languages. In some fantasy settings, using magic requires you to speak a special, usually archaic tongue, but I dispute that this is the case for Middle-earth. That certain languages such as Quenya or archaic Black Speech are spoken by magically adept peoples does not necessarily mean that speaking those languages is why they are magically adept, or that no other languages could be used.

If you have textual evidence you can point to that the use of magic is limited to certain "languages of spells" and/or that the existence of non-mutually intelligible dialects somehow precludes a language from being used for magic, I would be delighted to peruse it even if I end up being proven wrong.

I didn't necessarily mean here that only certain languages can have spells, although I can see how my statement makes it seem that way. My main point was that it seemed peculiar, to me, to refer to a bunch of mutually unintelligible dialects of other languages as the "orcish tongue" and to my mind when saying the "orcish tongue" in the third age it seems more likely to me to be a reference to the debased Black Speech that the orcs of this age used, rather than the collection of unrelated dialects of other languages from an earlier time. Unless of course we think that Gandalf knew spells in all of these unrelated dialects (which is certainly a plausible reading of this sentence).

But this is all to say that your main point about orcs being potentially able to do magic is certainly a point well taken . I think that the quotation even if the language we're referring to is some form of Black Speech it still explicitly uses the word "orcs" and not for example the "tongue of Sauron" or even "tongue of Nazgûl".

But I think there's little evidence in the Hobbit (that I can find, happy to be proven wrong here) that this particular door was anything but mechanical.

I am not sure, but it seems to me that the magic of the hidden door is about it being, well, hidden. After all, it opens in a way no more mysterious than the front door of Bag-end (one uses a key, rather than ringing the doorbell). So I reasoned that Tolkien, in his cunning, crafty way, as it were hid in his story a second hidden door, namely the Front Porch.

I think this is a very good and interesting point that opening and hiding of doors can be two different magics.

"A crack had opened at the back of the cave, and was already a wide passage" and later "The crack closed with a snap" indicating that there was indeed a crack there and that it's being opened/closed wider to become a passage. This hardly seems like a magically hidden crack as it doesn't disappear but simply closes. This again leads me to believe that it's some sort of mechanically operated "door" which when closed appears to be simply a small crack in the wall of a cave (which would be all too common), i.e. hidden in plain sight. This in conjunction with the practically subsequent statement about Orcs (goblins) delighting in mechanical things like wheels and engines which comes directly after describing the party going through the Front Porch.

[The Good Hunter]

I think that nowadays our (the readers) perception of magic has changed from when Tolkien wrote the Hobbit. Nowadays, flooded with all sorts of fantasy, sci-fi, and horror, our perception of magic and what magic does. A lot of magic as it is written currently is a way to change the world, to disrupt the natural flow of things and curve it to the wielder's intentions.

Magic in Tolkien's world, at least with respect to the Hobbit, seems to do the opposite. It makes the world more so. It seems to expand upon the natural properties of an object- both abstract things like language and concrete things like camouflaged doors- and enhance them in a natural way.

There is a better than good chance too, that I'm not making any sense and not actually contributing to the conversation.

[Eldy Dunami]

My main point was that it seemed peculiar, to me, to refer to a bunch of mutually unintelligible dialects of other languages as the "orcish tongue" and to my mind when saying the "orcish tongue" in the third age it seems more likely to me to be a reference to the debased Black Speech that the orcs of this age used, rather than the collection of unrelated dialects of other languages from an earlier time.

I feel like we're talking past each other. The words "orcish tongue" do not appear in this thread before your most recent post, nor can that phrase be found in Appendix E or F. Returning to the original Gandalf quote, he mentioned "all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs." Both Elves and humans speak a variety of languages, not all of which are mutually intelligible. Even without consulting the Appendices, there's no reason to think orcs are an exception. In that respect, I think we're on the same page. But even if Gandalf was talking about a universal Orcish lingua franca, I don't think it would have been Black Speech. Appendix F specifically states "that in the Third Age Orcs used for communication between breed and breed the Westron tongue" (and some spoke it natively), while "the more debased form [of Black Speech was] used by the soldiers of the Dark Tower" specifically. But note that we witness Mordor orcs speak Westron among themselves, as in the conversation between Shagrat and Snaga (ROTK, VI 1).

Unless of course we think that Gandalf knew spells in all of these unrelated dialects (which is certainly a plausible reading of this sentence).

That seems to me the plain meaning of "all the tongues."

But this is all to say that your main point about orcs being potentially able to do magic is certainly a point well taken . I think that the quotation even if the language we're referring to is some form of Black Speech it still explicitly uses the word "orcs" and not for example the "tongue of Sauron" or even "tongue of Nazgûl".

But I think there's little evidence in the Hobbit (that I can find, happy to be proven wrong here) that this particular door was anything but mechanical.

to both these points (though @Chrysophylax Dives' point about hiding-magic merits further consideration).