Watching for Who?

[Androthelm]

Hey y'all

I thought I'd pop in here with a question to spark some discussion, prompted by my recent efforts to catch up on the illustrious Prancing Pony Podcast. I'll start by saying that I'm not always 100% thrilled with some of the things the PPP says — I think they have a tendency to be a bit short-sighted in their analysis and then (once they've settled on things) fervid in their self-assurance, but all-in-all I like listening to them quite a bit and am most of the way through their discussion of Fellowship (I might raise some of these critiques in more detail later, but that's all secondary).

On to the question at hand: I've just gotten to their episodes on the passage through Moria, and am listening particularly (as I write this, in fact) to their thoughts on the Watcher in the Water. Namely, the boys of the PPP spend quite a bit of time discussing whether a.) the Watcher is working in league with the occupants of Moria, b.) the occupants of Moria are working in league with Sauron, and c.) whether this means that the Watcher is in league with Sauron, proving that Gandalf's suspicion was right at it did target Frodo for his possession of the Ring.

My question is: does this follow? On the one hand — yes, it does seem that the Watcher serves a key role in "trapping" them in Moria, suggesting some kind of intention beyond hunting for its own pray. Additionally the orcs of Moria are Sauron's servants, yes? (we see the tension between Sauron's Moria-orcs and Saruman's Isengard-orcs in Two Towers, I thought) which suggests an alliance between Moria and Mordor. On the other hand the PPP are pretty confident that the Balrog serves as some kind of supreme commander over the orcs in Moria — which is not the role I would imagine it in, given its rather "eldritch" nature. It's hard to imagine the Balrog giving instructions, I mean.

Most importantly: I'm not sure that any of this is the way to test Gandalf's thought that the Watcher targeted Frodo specifically. I've always read that passage not as implying a relationship with Mordor but rather a specific attraction to the Ring.

So, what do you think? Does anyone here have clear thoughts on the relationships between these powers (Sauron, Watcher, Balrog, Moria-orcs)? And for whom* do we think the Watcher was watching?

*as both agent (watching on their behalf) and object (watching to see if they pass by)

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Hey Androthelm: I am not a lorist, but I can give some thoughts if you don't mind. Nobody agrees 100% with what is read of heard, that is very much to ask of a person. I looked up the website of the Pony Podcast. Here is a guiding quote from the chapter "In the Darkness":

`I felt that something horrible was near from the moment that my foot first touched the water,' said Frodo. 'What was the thing, or were there many of them? '
'I do not know,' answered Gandalf, 'but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the Company.

From my knowledge it is the One Ring Frodo is carrying, that calls all dark things towards it, and light things too to corrupt them. That displays fervently when Frodo meets with Galadriel over the Mirror in Lothlorien:

'You are wise and fearless and fair, Lady Galadriel,' said Frodo. `I will give you the One Ring, if you ask for it. It is too great a matter for me.'
Galadriel laughed with a sudden clear laugh. `Wise the Lady Galadriel may be,' she said, `yet here she has met her match in courtesy. Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting. You begin to see with a keen eye. I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands, and behold! it was brought within my grasp. The evil that was devised long ago works on in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands or falls. Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his Ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?
`And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair! '
She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.
'I pass the test,' she said. `I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.'

The One Ring is true evil wrought from the mind of Sauron by his own hand. He poured a part of his essence into it, so he would not die when he was defeated in the Dagorlad. His Ring went lost, but once more united he would be as powerful as before, if Frodo's mission failed. You always had it right, there is a a specific attraction to the Ring (part of Sauron's mind). All Balrogs (corrupted Maiar), the Orcs and Uruk-hai, and all other creatures of evil possess an independent mind, like all races. But both Melkor's and Sauron's influences found their ways into everything alive, even in Valinor at the time the Trees were destroyed. Many were enslaved by the evil wrought upon them.

The Watcher in the Water of Sirannon was a sort of door guard. These are my own thoughts about the creature... I always felt it was a sort of Octopus, an ocean creature from the elder days and got stuck in this lake. Perhaps it is the body of a corrupted Maia, who lived for very long? It felt the presence of the Ring and reacted by wrapping a tentacle around Frodo's foot.

I hope this helps you a bit.

[Androthelm]

Absolutely @Aikári Salmarinian — thanks for the reply, and much that you've said resonates with me. There's a lot about the books which is really only ever implied in-text, whatever the general consensus has come to be since publication, and it seems we're really sitting on top of two of these:

1. the "one creature" versus "many creatures with one goal debate" — while the answer is not stated directly in text, both the use of "tentacle" rather than "serpent" or some similar, eel-ish word and the book of Mazarbul's singular "Watcher" seem to suggest one creature with many arms. This ties into the broader question of "what is it?" — Gandalf references the darker horrors beneath the Mountains, which serves both as our only explanation and a foreshadowing of Durin's Bane. While Tolkien is clear that his characters are not omniscient, I see no reason to doubt him in this case. So then we have the Watcher as an unknown horror — obviously the other deep horror, the Balrog, is simply of an elder time (Morgoth and the first age), but who knows? Maybe the Watcher is older and stranger even than that.

2. the more contemporary "what is it doing here?" My sense, too, is that the Ring is calling out to evil of its own volition, and the cooperation of evil creatures in attempting to steal the Ring is not necessarily reflective of collaboration with the "strategic" Sauron. Galadriel isn't, surely — even though the Ring tempts her. Indeed the temptation of the Ring in several places seems to work against Sauron, albeit toward Evil. Gandalf or Galadriel as new Dark Lords or evil broken forever — all the same to the Lord of Mordor, once he's kicked out the door into the Void.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Hey Androthelm, I don't pay much attention to what the general consensus is. The times back then, a century ago, it was a strong paternal orientated society in West-Europe, where as an unmarried woman had an uncle, a father or a brother as a legal guardian and after marriage the husband. And all gender ideas of today, you were procecuted for and put in jail or worse. There were safe circles for those people, but all was hushed up in society and did not exist. I don't understand what people try to search in Tolkien's works, but for me his works are reflection of his ideas and the world he was part of. Other than that... Tolkien's letters and sporadic interviews are not exciting to read or view, but they contain the words of the professor himself, and for me if he states it is that way, there is no discussion for me other than what he says it is.

Your two points are clear and I agree with. Tolkien Gateway used to words "tentacle" and "watcher". Peter Jackson's approach in the Fellowship movie might be a bit overrated, but his approach of what possible was one creature, feels to me correct. I had never a problem with seeing that monstrosity rising from the water and trying to eat Frodo. Tolkien himself kept it to mysticism by writing only about the tentacles and never mentioning a body, creating the words of Mithrandir becoming even more creepy. And yeah I like very much your reference as a foreboding to the Durin's Bane later on.

I have no idea how 'strategic' Sauron really is. I am lorewise not that well known with his character, so I take your word for it. From my memory I know the presentation of the Ring when the council takes place in Imladris and is discussed, I indeed felt it was a 'living object', just as you say the Ring calls out evil on its own volition. That is indeed very likely how Tolkien intended the Ring to be.

As a quote from Tolkien Gateway: "Part of the nature of the Ring was that it slowly and inevitably corrupted its wearer, regardless of any intentions to the contrary. Whether this was specifically designed into the Ring's magic or was simply an artefact of its evil origins is unknown. (Sauron might be expected to endow his One Ring with such a property, but he probably never intended anyone besides himself to wear it. It may be a side-effect of the portion of Sauron's will that lies within the Ring, influencing the wearer.) Part of its essential deceit was filling minds with imaginations of supreme power. For this reason, the Wise, including Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel, refused to wield it in their own defence, but instead determined that it must be destroyed.... Its power to lust was so great that it was impossible for anyone (even Sauron) to try to injure it although unbreakable by itself. "

There appeared to have been a foreword to Lotr book second edition written by Tolkien. Quote from Tolkien Gateway: "In order to counter the notion that The Lord of the Rings was inspired from World War II, Tolkien himself provided a "what if" scenario in the Foreword to The Fellowship of the Ring that shows what would happen should the Ring be used against Sauron. Tolkien explained that if he had WWII in mind, then the Free peoples would enslave Sauron with the power of the Ring against him, and occupy Mordor."

I don't know if those quotes can be presented as the right interpretation of the intentions of the One Ring, as the pages are written by others as well, but honour Tolkien's legendarium as much possible. I am using them as I got no access to the Letters in English, or the Second Edition of LOTR. So indeed to be said, the One Ring had a mind of its own, albeit imbued with the desire to be united to its master, by whatever means.

NB: The Letters are explained on TG, so I could read their summaries there.

[Androthelm]

Thanks again for your thoughts — I'll respond to it bit-by-bit.

[...] Other than that... Tolkien's letters and sporadic interviews are not exciting to read or view, but they contain the words of the professor himself, and for me if he states it is that way, there is no discussion for me other than what he says it is. [...]

While this is a fair take, and the letters are always a good source, we shouldn't forget that Tolkien himself isn't entirely consistent — the letters often disagree with each other. But, anyway...

[...] Peter Jackson's approach in the Fellowship movie might be a bit overrated, but his approach of what possible was one creature, feels to me correct. [...] And yeah I like very much your reference as a foreboding to the Durin's Bane later on. [...]

This is it exactly, yes.

I have no idea how 'strategic' Sauron really is. I am lorewise not that well known with his character, so I take your word for it.

Well, he's certainly able to "strategize" in some sense — he sends a missive to Moria, treats with Saruman through the palantir, and holds the Nazgul back at the Anduin, for example. So it's not beyond his capacity to work strategically — we just don't know if he's doing that here.

[..] I indeed felt it was a 'living object', just as you say the Ring calls out evil on its own volition. That is indeed very likely how Tolkien intended the Ring to be. [..]

The personhood of the Ring is, I think, one of those never-to-be answered questions, where the core of the text is (at this point) so muddled by generation after generation of fan interpretation that we're unlikely to ever see it clearly again. Still, I think we can say comfortably: the Ring is an actor, an "agent," at the very least, even if it isn't a "person" what interests me is the ways in which its Agency seems to operate against Sauron's interest at time — for instance, in the moments you cite from the Gateway, where its temptations of Gandalf and Galadriel seem corruptive toward evil and not toward Sauron. A world in which Galadriel becomes the white queen is not a world that turns out well for any enemy of hers, whether they made the Ring or no.*

[...]There appeared to have been a foreword to Lotr book second edition written by Tolkien.[...][/i]

The foreword here is mostly concerned, as you mention, with the possibility of the allegory to the second world war. T is of course critical of this — but in that model the Ring becomes comparable, I suppose, to the Atom Bomb? Anyway — I think that comparison only goes so far as to say it is a powerful and evil weapon, and not necessarily more or less than that.



*Although on this note, I'm slightly skeptical of the quote on TG which suggests Sauron could not have destroyed the Ring, even if he wanted to. I may be wrong — but does anyone have a source for that?

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Androthelm: I have plans to try and read the Letters and then I'll discover too the inconsistencies. But that is normal in the development of tales. A writer self adapts and the story with it. Ah... yes I had forgotten about Saruman's treaty and that happens through Palantir. This is the link to One Ring on Tolkien Gateway, where I got my quotes from. I forgot to add it. For me it is a reliable website where the information is objectively written with footnotes where the info was gotten from originally. It was often used in the old days. Under Ref 18 you will find the Plaza mentioned. I found it most peculiar.

Yes, I find your note about the foreword is indeed an allegory. I hadn't thought of that, but it fits precise.

On the core of the text there is one solution as I see it, take only the story of Lord of the Rings, Tolkien's Letters where he spoke about the Ring and the few interviews of him, where he gives answers about the Ring. That was the only material available for the first people who called themselves scholars. Those few courses are well accessible to us. More you don't need. It is the hardest route to understand, but also the less muddiest. I should try it myself, but I haven't found the spirit yet to do. But discussions like these, I avoided them in the past. Now I am more confident to try.

Thanks still for fleshing out my last post so well.

[Boromir88]

@Androthelm Additionally the orcs of Moria are Sauron's servants, yes? (we see the tension between Sauron's Moria-orcs and Saruman's Isengard-orcs in Two Towers, I thought)

I actually think the Moria orcs are a separate group from Sauron's. There seems to be 3 different groups of orcs involved in The Uruk-hai chapter. There are the Isengarders (led by Ugluk), a group with the Red eye symbolism (from Mordor, presumably led by Grishnakh), and the "Northern orcs" from Moria, which were hunting the Fellowship after they crashed the place. In Lorien, Haldir mentions the march wardens spotted a band of orcs coming through, and I've just always assumed this was the group out of Moria hunting the party, and they joined up with the Isengarders later. Additionally, in The White Rider, Gandalf says Sauron is aware the Ring was in Rivendell, the number and make up of the Fellowship that left with it. Given this, and Grishnakh calling Saruman a "dirty, treacherous" wizard, Sauron sent out his own group of orcs from Mordor to track down the Fellowship. Gandalf also guesses things will turn bad for Saruman:

...but the Dark Lord knows that two hobbits were taken in the Emyn Muil and borne away towards Isengard against the will of his own servants. He now has Isengard to fear as well as Minas Tirith. If Minas Tirith falls, it will go ill with Saruman.' (The Two Towers: The White Rider)

Grishnakh is a fascinating minor character, I kind of feel inspired to make a thread about him. For an orc, he has quite a bit of depth. He falls for Pippin's "gollum" trick, so he clearly knows more about the Ring than what you would expect your average orc should know. It's curious that Sauron chose an orc for such a task. Anyway, in my opinion, it suggests there are 3 groups, and the "Northern orcs" that joined Ugluk's party as well, are a separate group from Grishnakh's.

[Androthelm]

@Boromir88 thanks for the corrections! I'm just about to begin a re-read of the Two Towers, so it's certainly been a while.

That being said, I always thought Grishnakh's (apparent) familiarity with Gollum, and Gollum's relationship with Mordor broadly, was very interesting. It's unfortunate that (thanks mostly to the limited perspective we get on Gollum's journeying) we don't see more of it -- though details (such as Grishnakh's reaction to the Gollum impression and the suggestion in The Great River that Gollum may have set enemies on their trail) are scattered throughout.

[Boromir88]

@Androthelm, your thread inspired me to dive more into Grishnakh. Check it out here, if you're able, and I'd be interested in reading your opinions.

This is just pure speculation, but I've always thought the Watcher was one of the nameless things Gandalf mentions:

"Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." (The Two Towers: The White Rider)

If I recall correctly, the Misty Mountains were made by Melkor. Evil just seems to be drawn to the vicinity. A balrog, the malevolent "spirit" of Caradhras, nameless things gnawing the earth. In Ori's records from the Chamber of Mazarbul, he writes "The Watcher in the Water took Oin. We cannot get out." (The Fellowship of the Ring: The Journey in the Dark) They don't seem to be allied with Sauron, besides generally being evil creatures. Similar to Shelob's relationship with Sauron. She watches one of the ways into Mordor, he doesn't care if she munches on a few orcs that are foolish enough to pass too close through her lair.

Evil things seem drawn to Caradhras, as they are the Ring. Isildur's party being ambushed, when his intentions were to give the Ring to the "Keepers of the Three," The Watcher being curiously drawn to Frodo, as well as the Orc captain in Moria:

But even as they retreated, and before Pippin and Merry had reached the stair outside, a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber, behind him his followers clustered in the doorway...With a thrust of his huge hide shield he turned Boromir's sword and bore him backwaders, throwing him to the ground. Diving under Aragorn's blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the Company and thrust his spear straight at Frodo. (The Fellowship of the Ring: The Bridge of Khazad-dum)

That description always stands out to me, because it's impressive what the orc-chieftain does. It's like he was in some sort of berserk frenzy to charge and get to Frodo. Think of the strength it takes to push Boromir backwards and knock him to the ground, then the agility to duck below Aragorn's strike.

[Androthelm]

@Boromir88 I like that a lot -- I'll read over the Grishnakh thoughts in a moment. Yes, I think I'm a similar place when it comes to the Watcher -- and I think you're right to link the evil things naturally being drawn to the Ring to the Orc-chief. I'm reminded of the thing I said earlier in this thread, about how the goals of the Ring to cause mischief are not always in-line with what would be best for Sauron. Perhaps he might recover the Ring from a Moria-orc, but Gandalf or Galadriel falling would certainly not end well for him.

With that in mind, perhaps you're right to link all this to a Melkor-alignment and the general goal of badness in creation rather than Sauron-alignment and the current goal of personal domination in the here-and-now. The Ring brings things to ill -- sometimes in official alignment with Sauron, and sometimes simply because ill things are brought to it.